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For the Czar, Perturbed et al. reg. athletics...
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TchoupShopper
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:38 pm    Post subject: For the Czar, Perturbed et al. reg. athletics... Reply with quote

http://www.nola.com/sports/t-p/index.ssf?/base/sports-25/1156661417265020.xml&coll=1&thispage=7

quoting from the article in today's sports section (the whole article is very long)....

At Tulane, Doug Hertz, chairman of a board of trustees athletic task force, said the Green Wave teams that did survive the cuts -- football, baseball, men's and women's basketball, women's track and volleyball -- deserved the opportunity to return after spending all or part of last year on the road.

But he added that the school's ability to maintain them has its limitations and that community support -- specifically improved football attendance -- is vital, especially if the other sports are to be restored.

"We've done well with our fund raising," he said. "But there comes a point where we've got to show something at the box office as well."

Otherwise, a drop to Division III, something contemplated during the athletic review of 2003, could be considered again.

"If we are going to compete, we have to be able to give our people the tools to compete," Hertz said. "It doesn't make a lot of sense to put a substandard product on the playing fields.

"There are a lot of options we have open to us, and clearly the popular one and the one we have had some success in is Division I-A. But now with all off the changes to New Orleans and the financial impact to Tulane, we have to make sure it is something we can do."

Weighing priorities

Hertz said that no decision is imminent, pointing out that the school recently honored its $7.5 million commitment to refurbish Turchin Stadium and is looking to renovate Fogelman Arena.

Hertz also said the school's $2 million subsidy of the athletic department was worth the benefit the program creates, but added, "Once you have to start cutting academic programs and you're not able to pay faculty and staff salaries at the level you need to attract the top people, which are things that could lessen a student's experience, you have to start asking where your priorities are."

.....

Alright YOGWFer's and others, it's time to stop kidding yourselves. Tulane is still keeping the door wide open to drop to D-III AND FOR THAT TO NOT HAPPEN they have to be able to restore suspended programs as well as meet the overall financial goals set in 2003.

I hope that seeing this is sobering to those who have been thinking otherwise -- a large group, I suspect. I have felt since 2003 that the default option has always been to drop down. It's only been "IF this can be done..." or "IF that can be done..." that they would do something different.

This may or may not make engineers feel better but I have to say that the notion that Tulane somehow "chose football over engineering" is not quite accurate and this shows it. They'll get their turn again and the only way that their turn doesn't come back up fairly soon is if the football team unexpectedly does substantially better on the field than most observers think that they will.

The difference is that when football was on the chopping block in 2003, the news spilled out, alumni and others marshalled the support of politicians and others to twist Cowen's arm and then he devised a way to buy some time. With the engineering and Newcomb changes Cowen made sure that the news did not spill out ahead of time.
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TheCzar35



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
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Location: New Orleans, La

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:54 am    Post subject: YOGWF Guys are Fired Up Reply with quote

Check out the YOGWF site, there is allot of postings under "YOGWF Board" about the TP article. Some points were made about the reduction in student enrollment due to changing Tulane's academic focus. Many of these guys think a winning football program will increase enrollment, how about a winning and diverse academic programs that mean something in the real world, like engineering. Interesting reading.....
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TchoupShopper
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They misread what was said. Not surprising.

Fact: there are serious issues univesity-wide regarding finances.

Fact: things are in doubt as far as the future with athletics.

Fact: Newcomb and engineering were hardly costing major sums to operate.

Fact: Cowen sprung his whole package of changes on the Board as a strictly take-it-or-leave-it deal and did so without warning.

It's just mind-boggling how Tulane could possibly be thinking that it's doing the right thing right now in alienating so many alums while also reducing enrollment just for the sake what had to have been, at the most, fairly trivial savings as regards engineering and Newcomb.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TchoupShopper wrote:
They misread what was said. Not surprising.

Fact: there are serious issues univesity-wide regarding finances.

Fact: things are in doubt as far as the future with athletics.

Fact: Newcomb and engineering were hardly costing major sums to operate.

Fact: Cowen sprung his whole package of changes on the Board as a strictly take-it-or-leave-it deal and did so without warning.

It's just mind-boggling how Tulane could possibly be thinking that it's doing the right thing right now in alienating so many alums while also reducing enrollment just for the sake what had to have been, at the most, fairly trivial savings as regards engineering and Newcomb.


Another fact: I had forgotten to point this out but really and truly the whole athletics program is hanging on as Div. 1 because the NCAA has allowed Tulane to suspend several programs -- programs that they are going to have to restore sooner or later.
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TheCzar35



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 55
Location: New Orleans, La

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:07 am    Post subject: Bring back Engineering Reply with quote

This is what I posted on YOGWF, on the main board under the TP-Dickerson letter topic. I think many of them are starting to get IT. They see enrolloment down and how Tulane should offer more not less academic options that make sense for 21st centry Post-Katrina NOLA and the nation. You guys need to join the YOGWF discussion, but don't inflame them, we got them thinking. If we can band with them on common grounds we would have more weight against Cowen with the BOA.

TheCzar35 wrote:
Guys,
Roller, Mr. Big EZ Wave and other friends, I do appreciate this thread since it includes engineering as one of its themes, albeit restoration of engineering is near and dear to my heart, but the bigger theme here is “what does Tulane offer” that applies in the real world and how it contributes to this area and the nation? OUG makes a good point about engineering salaries to a point, but what he fails to see is many engineers practice then get the MBA or law degree. After these graduate degrees, most stay in within the engineering and technological fields applying business and law. After all engineering is a practical field which ultimately means engineering equal business and its practices. Engineers become managers and business men/women, moving from the technical to business and operations ranks. This is a normal process for most engineers anyway which leads to even higher salaries, but we never forget our roots and in most cases still consider ourselves engineers. A bachelor degree in any engineering discipline not only leads to becoming a “technical” engineer, with possible advanced engineering degrees, but to other related business, marketing and management careers. Any engineering graduate will tell you having an undergraduate degree in any engineering field will open up more doors than any other undergraduate degree that they could have taken. Engineering technology is applied to almost every type of business and is at the core of our nation’s economic engine. Engineering is not just about making a buck; it is about improving the quality of life, our safety and providing systems and services for the public good. Most engineers are not just “geeks” sitting around dreaming up useless stuff, we are out there developing and improving things to sell. Engineering is a practice, like law and medicine, but it does not require that you go to graduate school to complete your education. Many of us need to hold a license in the state in which we practice, which requires us to take two eight hour exams and at least four years of internship, just as lawyers, doctors and CPA’s do to varying degrees. We not only design and build things to “sell” we also sell technical services and do consultation for a fee.

I have been an engineer and project manager for 30 years and Roller is right, few non-engineers understand what it takes to educate and become an engineer. This is why just keeping Chemical and Biomedical will lead to either the failure or loss of accreditation of those remaining programs at Tulane. Every engineering student in his/her first two years studies the core of engineering which is made up of ME, CE and EE, which come from the very departments that are being cut by the Renewal Plan. Again I say, Post-Katrina, something needed to be done to reduce cost, but these cuts could have been shared across the university without cutting entire programs. Not thinking it out, these engineering cuts will hurt the remaining engineering programs and Tulane in the long run. But, I believe a mid-course correction can be made with engineering, since all these departments are still operating for the 2006/2007 school year. If Tulane were to reverse these cuts and restore these core engineering programs with some changes, it would be a positive shot in the arm to for Tulane and the city of New Orleans.

Maybe Tulane could consider a developing a Petroleum Engineering curriculum in its “restored” Civil Engineering Department. (Really a PE is a CE with more soils and geological course background.) The point by OUG was well made, about offering Petroleum Engineering at Tulane, but what about the other needs in the oil industry? Did you know the field of Geo-Physics is made up of Electrical Engineers and mathematics graduates? Most of the Signal Theory used from the seismic data was developed by Electrical and Electronic Engineers, so I guess you could say EE also plays a big roll in the oil industries demand for engineers. Actually is takes all fields of engineering, not just PE, to make the oil and petrol-chemical industry work. The Oil and Petrol-Chemical Industry is at the core of NOLA and Louisiana and Tulane needs to jump in and be a part of it if this area is ever going to become a leader in managing our states natural resources again. If Tulane adjusted and brought these departments back it would have a positive affect on all areas of Tulane even athletics. Tulane needs to be a university that offers educational options not limitations, without these options Tulane will become an overpriced liberal arts college in a low-tech artsy party town which will affect our academic standing and even affect recruiting for sports. So you see this thread comes back to the purpose of YOGWF, Tulane Athletics, but without an academically healthy university with a board academic offering, the state and future of athletics at Tulane may be in doubt. I know I was a little long on this, but I do appreciate your “positive” comments and any help that would help our goal of making Tulane better and keep sports alive.
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perturbed1



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I post on YOGW as Peter Berg which is my real name. I am ot a Tulane alum but the father of a current student (not an engineer). I am never the less very sympathetic to what has happened to the engineering and believe the decision to eliminate the school at this time to be a big mistake.

It will be hard to garner much support on YOGW for engineering because they have their hands full trying to save Tulane football, and that is what they really care about. Any other cause is merely a distraction for them and frankly having engineering and Newcomb alumni pissed off strengthens their position. How many more alumni can the administration afford to alienate?

Tulane is in tough shape right now. This recruiting year was an absolute disaster, and I think next year will be nearly as bad. Ironically engineering would probably be the easiest school to recruit for these days.

Scott Cowen is not the sharpest tack in the box but he may be the biggest hammer. He is forceful, bullheaded, and dangerous when crossed. I don't believe he would reverse voluntarily any of the positions he has staked out in BuRP (the Bold university Renewal Plan). Indeed I think he staked those positions out long before Katrina gave him the leverage to implement them. So if you want to get engineering back you are going to have to get Scott ot first, and that will be no easy task before his contract is up.
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TchoupShopper
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The YOGWF-er's think that they *already have* saved D-1A football, it's a done deal and that either they have brought Cowen around to their side or that he was on their side all along. That engineering and Newcomb bore the brunt of the shocking decisions last December rather than athletics has only reinforced that line of thought.

When -- and I really feel like it's been a matter of "when" and not "if" given the nature of the outcome of the 2003 episode which seemed to call for a thorough re-examination of the state of things after 5 years -- there's another review the YOGWFer's will probably be jolted.

Also, Czar's posts have mentioned another athletics review forthcoming and the current situation of recovering from the storm and having to deal with lower enrollment would very much seem to dictate that the Board thoroughly examine the institution's priorities.

Logic itself would seem to easily spell out that the fan base has to become much larger and more constant or else it will be very difficult to keep going.

All of these groups, sports fans, engineering, Newcomb, are in the same boat.

Now, the question is where the allies of these groups are in terms of alums with the resources and power to possibly get Cowen's attention, where the allies are on the Board -- the sports fan contingent had had some important allies on the Board in 2003 but those people are not around now -- and politicians, who were another major factor in 2003.
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perturbed1



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is not much joy over in YOGWFer Land tonight. This team looks pretty woeful and there are probably some folks who are close to throwing in the towel as they contemplate what the year is going to be like.

But the woes of atheletics in general and football in particular offer no consolation for engineers. There are not going to be allies over there whether DI status is threatened or not. They care about sports not engineers.
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wckirby



Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are two posts that represent the attitude over there:

Quote:

Katy bar the door, it's going to be a long and painful season. Looking ahead, we might be able to handle Army at homecoming, otherwise I don't see a win this season based on what I saw tonight. Our team was nowhere near as athletic as UH, and we ran like we had lead shoes. I can only conclude that all the talk about the strong recruiting classes during the past 5 years has been completely off base, or we are taking decent athletes and degrading both their abilities and competitiveness. Tonight's game was not as close as the 45-7 score indicates. The Wave was sleep walking from the first kick-off, and the play calling was right out of the Teevens era. There is no way we win with Ricard at QB. He reminds me of David Carr (Houston Texans QB) with great physical gifts, but completely unable to read what is going on downfield. He's also like Carr in that his feet are continually dancing, and he constantly throws into multiple coverage Our only chance of winning is with Elliot at QB. But that probably won't be enought, since our defense showed no ability to slow UH tonight. The D is incredibly slow and porous--I don't know how we held them to 45. The Katrina-related problems for the university are evident. But this program is completely off the tracks, with or without Katrina. Radical surgery is needed, but I don't think Cowen or the trustees have the will, gumption or energy to do what needs to be done to get us back to a competitive level. My only response to all the excuses we can come up with is---"look at the scoreboard".

*********************************

For the first time in 40 years, I was not looking forward to football season. This game was no surprise to me at all. You can win at Tulane. It has been done before but it will not again if it is up to this current regime. I will not be there and many other now ex season ticket holders will not be attending games this year. There is no entertainment value with this team. You can call us fair weather fans or whatever, but the fact is there have been many stormy years and very few fair weathered years. Count me out until a commitment is made to get serious about football. See ya'll in Fogleman and Turchin. Until then peace and HBC signing off until Basketball season. For those of you who stay on board, God bless and good luck.





Cowen loves the pomp and circumstance associated with the presidency, but (just like good ole C-Ray) he doesn't get involved in the nitty-gritty details of actually doing the job. The whole Renewal Plan was based on what was told to him without any real verification of the facts.

Who in the hell is running this school and where is the leadership? That's my question. I don't see an answer anywhere in sight. It sickens me to see what's going on.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if this is wrong but I think it's also come out that Tulane was under-insured and is also having a rough time dealing with insurers for what coverage they did have.

If these engineering programs were really operating in the black then this is all just too bizarre to behold.

Where are the cost savings really being achieved if it is not egineering? Or do you feel that the cost savings shown in Cowen's plan are a total fiction?

Also, is it true or not that a major reason why they didn't make a major change with athletics was lack of funds to pay off coaches' contracts?
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wckirby



Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Correct me if this is wrong but I think it's also come out that Tulane was under-insured and is also having a rough time dealing with insurers for what coverage they did have.


They recovered all their money from one insurer, but one of the others has been extremely difficult. Most of the remaining disputes are in regards to the arts collection. For example, one of the items lost in the flood was all of Commodore Perry's journals. How do you put a price on that? It's a problem, but not an earth-shattering one.

Quote:

If these engineering programs were really operating in the black then this is all just too bizarre to behold.

Yep. Look at the '98 report. Engineering was, at worst, a break even program. The "deficit" for the engineering school was ficticious and a result of bizantine accounting practices on the part of the university.

Quote:

Where are the cost savings really being achieved if it is not egineering? Or do you feel that the cost savings shown in Cowen's plan are a total fiction?

About at third of the faculty of the med school was axed. The overwhelming majority of the savings come from there.

Quote:

Also, is it true or not that a major reason why they didn't make a major change with athletics was lack of funds to pay off coaches' contracts?

The exact way that Cowen put it during his meeting with the engineering students and other meetings was something along the lines of 'yes, they cost a lot to run, but the short term cost (of the buyouts, presumably) was too great a burden to bear at this juncture.' If they wait a year or two, the buyouts are presumably substantially cheaper. It still doesn't make any sense, though. Would you rather have a one time payout that can be diffused over a number of years, or a sustained deficit in the millions of dollars a year? It makes no sense, either on a business level or on any other level.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wckirby wrote:
Quote:

Correct me if this is wrong but I think it's also come out that Tulane was under-insured and is also having a rough time dealing with insurers for what coverage they did have.


They recovered all their money from one insurer, but one of the others has been extremely difficult. Most of the remaining disputes are in regards to the arts collection. For example, one of the items lost in the flood was all of Commodore Perry's journals. How do you put a price on that? It's a problem, but not an earth-shattering one.

Quote:

If these engineering programs were really operating in the black then this is all just too bizarre to behold.

Yep. Look at the '98 report. Engineering was, at worst, a break even program.

Quote:

Where are the cost savings really being achieved if it is not egineering? Or do you feel that the cost savings shown in Cowen's plan are a total fiction?

About at third of the faculty of the med school was axed. The overwhelming majority of the savings come from there.

Quote:

Also, is it true or not that a major reason why they didn't make a major change with athletics was lack of funds to pay off coaches' contracts?

The exact way that Cowen put it during his meeting with the engineering students and other meetings was something along the lines of 'yes, they cost a lot to run, but the short term cost (of the buyouts, presumably) was too great a burden to bear at this juncture.' If they wait a year or two, the buyouts are presumably substantially cheaper. It still doesn't make any sense, though. Would you rather have a one time payout that can be diffused over a number of years, or a sustained deficit in the millions of dollars a year? It makes no sense, either on a business level or on any other level.


If engineering was a break-even program then what do the engineers feel that the real reason was? What do the engineers feel about the reputation that the program had and what direction that reputation was going?

Hasn't Cowen said things along the lines of Tulane not being able to be "world class?"

BTW if the "world class" line is indeed what he has used with regard to engineering then it would seem to be a very good question as to why to continue with D-1A football when being "world class" at that would seem very much to not be on the agenda.

As regards not wanting to make the payout to buy out coaches' contracts, might this be a cash-flow issue?
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perturbed1



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cost savings in the BuRP were mostly over in the medical enterprise, but there were also considerable savings associated with dropping and consoldating PhD programs and with replacing tenured faculty with "Professors of Practice" aka full time adjuncts. These guys and gals have much heavier teaching loads, don't get sabbaticals, and don't waste university resources on research. They also don't rock the boat over administration decisions. Think of them as high school teachers who suddenly don't have to do hall monitoring. They will be among the happiest of Tulane employees.

What wasn't factored in the BuRP was the huge drop in enrollment which not only affects tuition revenue but the revenue from all sorts of ancillary services that Tulane markets. I believe there will have to be further cuts to get the overall enterprises operating revenues back in the black. I don't know what those cuts will entail but I could suggest one to the board. Let's go without a university president for a year or two since this one ain't doing anything useful anyway.
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wckirby



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

If engineering was a break-even program then what do the engineers feel that the real reason was? What do the engineers feel about the reputation that the program had and what direction that reputation was going?


The reason engineering was cut was a bizantine accounting system and Lester Lefton. Lefton was Tulane's Kimberly Williamson-Butler. Thank God he's gone.

Hmm, we produced numerous, excellent, PRACTICING engineers (like Robert Boh, Waldemar Nelson, etc.). Small engineering schools have a lot of handicaps that prevent them from competing directly with the big guys (MIT, GA Tech, etc.), but Tulane engineering was, man for man, as good as any program in this country.
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TchoupShopper
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:06 pm    Post subject: Control?? Reply with quote

Hmmm.

Talk of "the system"....

There was lots of talk about the university's accounting systems and finances during the 2003 athletics episode.

For instance, Tulane disclosed locally that athletics was running something like a $7 mil. deficit but reported to the Dept. of Education that there was not a deficit at all in athletics.

Ergo, and I'm sure you understand this pretty well, but you can sort of make an accounting system say what you want and there was some speculation back in 2003 that changing the accounting system to one in which the academics dept. heads were going to see a part of the athletics deficit as part of their own dept.'s costs was stirring anti-athletics sentiment.

For my part I feel like there was and is an athletics deficit and probably a pretty significant one. All but a small handful of institutions typically do not operate in the black. It's really more a question of how much is too much and what are you going to do about it if it's too much. Bottom line: there was and is not merely a financial dimension to the story and I strongly suspect that the philosophical dimension was and is the more important one, i.e. Cowen was trying to re-make things with athletics to suit his vision but doing it very sneakily.

Back to engineering, the same thing. I imagine that engineering is not cheap to operate, between professors' salaries and facilities and what Tulane has kept has largely been the cheaper-to-operate dept.s' has it not been?

You've seen and gotten a chance to thoroughly examine the numbers and yet your report is that at least some departments operated in the black.

BTW I don't doubt you at all but do you mind linking to what you're citing on that?

I suppose what I'm getting at is this: I'm wondering what's really going on since it all seems so bizarre. Do you not sense that this accounting system itself is a product of the Cowen vision? Why did he want to go after engineering and not, say, architecture (with Newcomb I do suspect that getting control of the Newcomb endowment is your story)?
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